In 3 months, I will change the cost of mooching a book internationally to be 3 points, so that the points received by the giver (3 points) are the same as the points paid by the person receiving the book.

I'm giving you 3 months' notice of this change, so that you have plenty of time to plan for it, however you like.

More info about this change:

1. this will be a 6 month test of this change, and may not be permanent. I will be closely monitoring the "vital signs" of international mooching, currency float, and other measures, to see what the positive and negative impact of this change will be.

2. The reason for this change is that the old system where an international mooch cost you 2 points, but the person received 3 points created a new point for each international mooch, thus causing inflation. In general, there are too many points on BookMooch and not enough books, so we need to adjust things to no longer create point inflation. 20% of each day's mooches are international, "printing" about 440 new points every day.

3. The old 2-points-to-mooch/3-points-to-receive is uneven, and causes problems when applied to mooch ratios. Specifically, since international mooches are supposed to be balanced with international giving (a 1:1 ratio) according to the mooch ratio, however today you receive 3 points for sending, and 2 for mooching (a 3:2 ratio), you can't actually spend all the points you receive when you're trading books internationally (the mooch ratio prevents that). That doesn't make a lot of sense, and it'd be good to correct it.

4. Why am I making intl mooching cost 3 points, instead of 2 points? The reason is that my rough survey of mailing costs is that for BM's main countries, it costs roughly 3x to 4x in real postage costs to send out of your country (Canada, France and Finland are important exceptions that I'm aware of). I thought that 2 points wouldn't provide enough incentive to send books internationally, and the general problem I see is not enough people willing to send internationally (*not* the reverse: it appears plenty of people are willing to mooch internationally).

   Here is typical comment I saw when discussing this last week on the forum:

   "Speaking from an Australian perspective, a decrease in the 3 points I get for sending internationally would force me to go 'my country only' as it is that extra point that helps make it worth my while to send internationally (which costs a significant amount from Australia)"

5. It might seem backwards, but I believe this will help international mooching. Here's why: under the old system, you only needed to send 2 books internationally to have enough points to mooch 3 books internationally. Over time, this creates a lack of incentive to send books internationally. Without enough people sending, mooching isn't possible. This change should help rebalance things.

6. This should help cause more Angel mooches, since Angels will now get even more value out of helping books get to other countries.

To reiterate:

1. this change will not occur until after April 20th

2. this change may not be permanent. I might revert to the old system after a testing period.

3. international mooches will cost 3 points, and the sender will receive 3 points.

4. Over time, this should help increase international trade

5. Domestic mooches will stay at 1 point.
   

In closing, I'd like to quote this relevant and funny comment that Nancy Gluck made a few days ago, when discussing the mooch ratio change:

The tenor of the discussion is like when they redraw election districts or devalue the national currency. Everyone hates the old system until they try to change it; then they anticipate how much they will hate the new system.

-john

My question: what else have you got planned for BookMooch?

How exactly? Currently, the Angel pays a point to get the book domestically, but receives three points when the book is mooched by the international member. How will this change? Not at all as far as you have explained it here.

6) This should help cause more Angel mooches, since Angels will now get even more value out of helping books get to other countries. How exactly? Currently, the Angel pays a point to get the book domestically, but receives three points when the book is mooched by the international member. How will this change? Not at all as far as you have explained it here.

You're right that Angels will continue to receive 3 points, so there's no point change for what they do.

However, by creating less inflation, and making receiving a book the same points as giving a book, the change should increase the number of people sending books. This means that the Angels will have greater opportunity to spend the 3 points they earned, because more people will be offering more international books that they can mooch themselves.

Currently, because of points inflation, lots of Angels have more points than there are books they want, and they continue to Angel mooch out of kindness, not because it makes points sense.

My goal is to create a situation where being a mooch angel is both a kind and generous thing to do, and it's rewarding from a points-earned-and-there's-stuff-I-can-spend-it-on point of view.

-john

I think that there definitely should be changes made on BM in regard to Canada as sending just one medium/small book that exceeds the lettermail qualifications can cost a ridiculous amount. Sending within Canada is so expensive that for most books it would be nearing the amount of which I am not willing to spend even for an international 3 points package, let alone 1 point.

Thanks for all the work and changes you do, John! I just don't really like the idea of this one. :)

When someone asks me to angel a book for them, I request it from someone else. This costs me one point. When I send it abroad I get 3 points. My net gain is 2 points (excluding the .1 bonuses, which I am fine with removing).

Currently, I can use those 2 points to request one book internationally. A 1:1 ratio, since you seem to be big on ratios lately.

Under the new system, I will be unable to use my gain from the angel transaction to request an international book. Yes, I can still request two domestic books from the transaction like I could before, but over time, angel transactions will bleed my points dry if I try to request a similar number of international requests unless charity or smooches are involved.

Angels will have to either require smooches/charity or cease their services. Those who require heavy use of angels will face either being able to mooch much less than they send, or will simply run out of people willing to angel to them. As the number of people willing to angel decreases, those left will be faced with an increased burden and be less able to afford it ourselves.

Here's a crazy idea... maybe point inflation has NOTHING to do with what's wrong with the site. Maybe a lack of marketing to bring in new customers is a big factor. Maybe you need to be hitting the Facebook ads and fan page to generate fresh blood at affordable prices instead of lamenting the fact that you're not getting as much press attention as PBS.

And here's a crazy idea... we all WANT new members because it means more books for us. Maybe more people would "give a little" if it was for a specific ad campaign.

Maybe you're not getting new people to sign up because the site looks like it was cobbled together in 2002 and new people don't feel confident that it is trustworthy.

Maybe you're not getting good retention because the site does a poor job of teaching newbies how to properly package a book, of giving them incentive to list the condition, and of preventing abuse by new members. Many members join for a time and get burned by bad transactions and leave as there is basically no recourse for them. One area you SHOULD consider copying PBS is their help documentation and how easy they make everything which prevents a lot of problems before they start.

However, I anticipate I'll run into some difficulties with my mooching after the change. I live in Finland and I think this change will hit countries like mine the hardest. As has been stated a few times in the recent posts, there isn't that many Bookmooch members here and the opportunities to mooch books domestically are very few and far between. Even if there is a book I could mooch, I always feel a bit quilty to actually do so due to the high domestic postal rates. As a result 95 % of my mooches have been international.

So after reading this blog post I was curious and checked the postal rates, since the postal rate will directly indicate the cost of the books I'd mooch in the future. Apparentely, as long as my books are all under 3 cm in thickness, I'll be relatively fine. However, thicker books than this result to considerably higher postal rates and sending a book even within Europe will cost me about 6,50 euros (elsewhere it's 8,15). So any book I'd mooch with these points, so to speak, would cost me the same. Now why would I want a used copy of a book (possibly even in a very dubious condition), when for that money I can get a brand new one from Bookdepository?

The point of all this is, that this doesn't really encourage me to send out more books internationally, since there won't be much point for me to list those thicker books. My sending activity will significantly diminish, since it just won't be worth it money-wise.

Just my two cents. Thanks for the opportunity to vent. The change will come and there's nothing I can do about it and that's fine by me. I'll just have to make my own decisions and adjust to the status quo accordingly.

Riikka

Your change makes perfect sense to me.

Thank you for explaining it.

Robert

If I get two angel requests and do not require or receive a smooch, I will earn two points each.

If I want an international book that requires an angel and a smooch, it will cost me four points. So sending two angel books without smooches will equal receiving one angel mooch with a smooch.

If John wants to kill the angel system, that's fine. It's his site and his right. I choose to angel and I can choose to stop any time. I am spending extra money out of my pocket to do something that benefits him.

I am only pointing all of this out because John stated, "This should help cause more Angel mooches, since Angels will now get even more value out of helping books get to other countries" This does nothing to increase the value that angels get.

Maybe you're not getting new people to sign up because the site looks like it was cobbled together in 2002 and new people don't feel confident that it is trustworthy.

Meow !

As a new member I'm not yet set in my ways, so I don't feel particularly put out. I can't imagine many people will be jumping for joy though, but thanks for the good long notice period! I expect there will be a serious amount of international mooching going on in the next 3 months whilst people scramble to spend any stockpiled points!

Virginia

John, you do great work and I applaud your willingess to put up with wildly different viewpoints so that we can trade books world wide (or not) as we choose!

I personally would be prepared to pay an extra point to get a book angelled.

The angel network will disappear unless the extra point is supplied

I don't think it will affect the Angels in the US directly, but international members will have fewer points to make said Angel mooches.

As for the 3:3, I'm open to seeing it. It does seem like it will make Angels less able to mooch internationally, though, which I wouldn't want to do. Would a 2.5:3 make any sense, or would that be too confusing/not help the inflation issue enough?

Thanks

-john

So I'm thinking of being not a BookMooch angel, but a sort of cherub. If a foreign member's having trouble acquiring inventory, s/he could email me. Depending on finances and mood, I would probably be willing to send a box of English-language paperbacks. They wouldn't be fantastic, but not total garbage either. This should help foreign members gather some BookMooch “currency” to spend on the books they actually want.

Radical idea? Ill-conceived? How would it affect the system?

I mooch and send locally/internationally and am very active. 99% of the time I mooch more than one book at a time from the same member which can be anything from 5 to 20 books. I then regularly revisit those I've mooched from in the past and mooch more. Come April, I'm afraid this will not be possible or will be very rare, unfortunately.

My concern is with the 2 points being raised to 3 for international mooches - and this in regards to multi-international mooching. I know others have also mentioned this as a concern.

Might I also suggest the possibility of a reduction of points required for international mooches if mooching more than two books etc from the same member? The owner should still get 3 points per book but the moocher should be offered a reduction of overall points (of 3 per book) if they multi-mooch.

For example: if I was to mooch 5 books from Person X in the USA to be sent to me in N Ireland - rather than it cost me 15 points - could there be a reduction to 10 points? Or something like that?

It worries me that there will be less people 'able' to mooch internationally regardless of how many folk are 'willing' to send internationally.

Thanks for the advance warning and hopefully by April, any teething problems/concerns will be sorted out to the understanding and benefit of all.

That said, I foresee a busy time of it with folks using up all their points internationally before April and then a lull thereafter. Had I more points in credit, I too would join the rampage! Lol

PLEASE honour the time frame to April. One Month is not fair to many folks who probably only visit BM on a weekly or less frequent basis. To spring this so suddenly, plus so soon after the Ratio Change, will possibly cause more grief, confusion and lead to folks packing it all in. Do please let folks adjust and prepare for the dramatic changes. Thanks.

The question of whether this change should be made in one *needs to be a seperate blog post* if you are serious about the inquiry... otherwise people may miss it among all the other posts, and your data is worthless. Since you are so keen on research I am sure you understand this ;) The post above me (Posted after your post) even says 'in April', rather than the sooner change your proposed.

So NO it would be a very *Bad* thing to make this change in one month. Not only that, you *Just told us* it would be THREE months. Not everyone reads the comments here.. many of the members will now be going on your official post of it being three months, and would be very surprised to see a post a few days later stating it was now one month. Morale in BM is already low, I am afraid suddenly going back on your word would be the last straw for many people :(

I OBJECT VEHEMENTLY TO CHANGING THIS AT ALL - LET ALONE IN ONE MONTH RATHER THAN THREE!!!!!!!!

Message received?

I really don't see this as encouraging International mooching, rather it will discourage International mooching. It'll hurt the Canadians the most since they are the 3rd largest membership and would rather trade with the States. Sending between Canada/US is just not close to sending overseas in price, might be good to make the price reflex this.

I see the inflation in the system not so much because of the imbalance of International mooching. Seems like the US gets mooched from more Internationally. If the US member doesn't mooch themselves internationally, like me because already I feel with most books it is more economical not to, books mooched to given ratio goes up. I have probably spent more for sending my given books, as a good number are overseas mooches, but my balance of mooched/given per actual book is high.

As a few people pointed out the 0.2 points is a bigger problem. This inflation is for all mooches domestic and international. Just going through the points of most of the people posting here and adding up how many points they have for the added 0.1 for each mooched/given and you start seeing members that would be at a negative balance. Maybe these people would if they didn't accrue all these bonus points, list books and be willing to send international to get points.

You quoted how many extra points per month were from International imbalance. Can you quote how many per month are from the 0.2 bonuses per each book in the system sent?

I don't see this as a positive. I still would send Internationally as that has not changed, but I would rarely mooch Internationally.

I feel that I am bloated with point 119. But as I pointed out before, 75 points are from 0.1 bonuses alone. I think that is about even for the number of mooched Internationally but like I said at 3 credits per book, I would have probably mooched only 1/3 of the books.

And yes, the more points you have, the less likely you feel you need to post. In fact posting becomes more selective and exclusionary. So there is a reason for John wanting to eliminate the inflation in the system. I kind of thing the credit, "debt", in the system needs to be eliminated too. I thought the 3:2 was a really good incentive to International trading though. I guess we will see.

I don't really care if it is next month or April.

I also agree with edit your post to include the 1 month question.

I've only been a member for four months, and I was very conservative in my mooching until recently. I only started trying (unsuccessfully) to mooch internationally in the past week. As a new person, you have less of a sense of the moochability of your collection or the likelihood that books on your wishlist will appear. As a newbie, I'm not sure that the novelty of getting a book from another country would have been worth paying two or three times the cost of the book from amazon or a used book store. I understand that many longtime members have lots of points and nowhere to spend them, which has resulted in too many points in our economy and no incentive to post more books. But many people commenting are also concerned about bring new members into the system. I think it's important to consider the impact this change may have on our ability to market BM to them.

Still I think this is not the first thing you should do to limit the devaluation of credits. I would like you to state the statistic on how many extra points are printed each month due to the 0.2 credits per book traded. How many books are traded averagely over say the last 4 months?

Oh, didn't see that you are already getting rid of the 0.1 for marked receiving. Still think the listing credits should be eliminated for all but the first 100 books at max.

New member signs up, lists 10 books in their inventory. 8 of them get requested almost immediately. Newbie finds this a bit overwhelming, but sends them all, thinking of the good stuff she will get in return. Waits for books from her wishlist to be posted... Waits... Waits some more... Waits even longer... Logs on less and less... eventually gives up.

If with 800 books on my wishlist I can go a full month without finding anything I want on here despite logging on daily (keep in mind that I once mooched 29 books in one month, back in 2008), I can only imagine what the odds are for someone with 100 or 50 or 20 books on their list.

Bookmooch had to take action, and I'm glad that they are doing so. I can only hope that it's not too late.

EDIT: Also, I've always been happy to send books internationally, and to do so quickly, no matter what the size, weight and destination are, and I will continue to do so. Oh wait, no I won't, as I've basically stopped adding books to my inventory, since at this point any new points I get are almost entirely worthless - I can't use them on any of the books I want.

I really don't get why this seems to be such a big deal. I find it ridiculously easy to accumulate points, and the members who I know who really use Bookmooch frequently, all have a lot of points as well. I for one don't see any reason for this. What good does it to anyone that I constantly have more than 50 points? It's not like you can save up for something really expensive - every book costs the same. I don't think it's good that it's so simple to get to high amounts of points, and one of the reasons that it was like this so far is that international mooches were uneven.

All the changes really don't bother me that much, because I just can't imagine that they will really change the dealings of a lot of members. Seiously - how many books does everyone here mooch and send? Reading some of the comments, it seems like everyone regularly mooches 30 books a month, but only sends 1. I for one mooch quite a lot of books, mostly because I'm an active journal participant, but at the same time that means that I send the same amount of books out, since journals travel along...

I know it must be really painful to read these comments John, knowing that you have to take these measures to stabilise the economy. Please remember that all this passion comes from the fact that the people posting here love the site you created.

I can see some people are very outraged, but who ever heard of a currency that appears out of nowhere? I pay 2 dollars for a coffee but the shop gets 3?? No.

Anyway, I will still be sending and mooching internationally, I have limited space on my bookshelves so I have found that it's healthy to have an equal input as output, just keeping the books in circulation. The only people this really effects is people who want to mooch more than they give, which is what we should be stopping.

Do you think you could add a regional tier at 2/2 (for Canada/US, particularly) before you change this? Or at least launch both things simultaneously? I think that 2-point cost for Canadian/US mooching is very important, and it isn't necessary to receive a third point between those countries to offset the cost of sending.

I think this change is a real shame. Understandable reasoning, but a real shame. I understand why you're doing it, and I can't say it seems unfair, but . . . (Sigh.) Just a real shame.

One more question: Do you think it would be possible to also implement that "multiple mooch discount" idea you mentioned earlier in three months' time, as well? That would still be a bit inflationary, but not nearly as much, as you mentioned, and it *would* help to offset the rising cost (and any disappointment) over this change. If you could implement that, as well as a 2/2 point change for Canadian/American mooches, I think that would work well. Plus then people would have something to look forward to when this change happens -- and it's good to have things people can look forward to, as well as dreading!

In my experience, the books in Spanish that I've listed in my inventory will eventually get mooched after waiting for a bit (it may have helped that many of them were children's books so they were good for people who were starting to learn). I love that I've been able to get books in Spanish to people in the US, Italy, UK, New Zeland, Canada, and Switzerland. What usually prevented me from listing more books or relisting books that I mooched is that if the book was slightly over 250g then it would just be too expensive to send (right now costs are about $10 for an under 250g package and 18$ for an under 500g to the US - considering the lower cost of living, it's very expensive). I still sent away because books in English are *even more expensive* and not widely available and Bookmooch helped me mooch many wonderful books that I've lent and given away to many of my friends and family (for that I'll be forever grateful).

I see that the problem now will be that other low cost sources for books will be more attractive for people who mooched internationally. BookDepository doesn't ship to Peru, but I'm in Spain for the rest of the year. I can send a package under 500g within the EU for 6 euros or I can buy a new mass market paperback from BookDepository for about the same... I guess now the people who will mooch internationally will be those who have lots of points or those who don't have many other sources for the books that they want. But that's OK as long as people are still willing to send internationally...

Andrea (from Peru)

I did write an article some time ago for the magazine Newbooks praising BookMooch which they kindly printed (I emailed you to tell you it was in but never heard anything back. I don't know if anyone else saw it or you had any response. You did OK me writing it.) I also tell people over here about the site at every opportunity but very few people seem to know about it. I think the appearance of the site is fine - it's abit quirky and different - and I appreciate the hard work that's behind it.

I also think condition notes are so important and will become more so. I have accepted older books and books that have not always been accurately described because the cost of mooching books was relatively cheap but as the cost of mooching goes up I perhaps won't be prepared to accept this.

I rarely have any books on an inventory: they usually get snapped up. If a book doesn't get mooched after a time, then I remove it because I simply haven't got the space to keep it and I am trying to find the book a new home so I send it to a charity shop or give it to someone else.

I've really enjoyed my time with BookMooch and thanks to everyone involved for making it the success it has been. I think it is right that you give people fair warning - three months - so they can make the right decisions for them.

It wouldn't be a problem if not for my country's new, increased postal fees for international shipping and the fact that I haven't a way to acquire cheap English books in Italy to send out and even my ratio.
If BM is to become too "pricey" due to postal fee AND I'll not be able to rise my international sending ratio I'll be forced to leave this site.

Well, let's see how it works. I'm willing to test it and then I'll know, but I fear I'll lose my favorite (and cheapest!) way to obtain foreign books >__<

I think it's wonderfully simple, which gives it short load times and an easily intuitive interface. I will admit that it seemed over-simple to me when I first joined (so I suppose that is worth considering), but within approximately two days, I preferred that to PaperBackSwap's overly-complicated one, and that's never changed.

I find it quirky and endearing. It's comfortable, easy to understand, and doesn't look like it's trying to look "cool" (which usually dates a site or otherwise makes it look stupid eventually). Perhaps a flashier design would wow more people into joining, but I think this interface gives the site better "staying power" in people's minds and hearts, as it were.

But I would like to see better forums, definitely. ;)

I think that if you were serious about BookMooch's health you would leave a span of time between each change so that you could actually get a picture of what helps and what hinders. Otherwise, you're just playing around.

Out of curiosity, are you considering any measures towards deflation, i.e. to completely remove excess points from the economy?

thanks for all the hard work,
Hibou

However, please can you look at a 2:2 as well. This would have to be based on where the person is, but there must be scenarios where it is cheaper to send to a closer country than half way around the world.

It may be that this will encourage more "local" mooching ie within europe or within North America.

This would also need some more Send to options.

People may list more, people may be keen to send more internationally, but the bottom line is that this will make less people mooch books internationally.

And without a request, there can't be a send.

Regardless of the points, I'd still love it if a 'my region' setting could be introduced, or something like 'my region always, ask first otherwise' as I reckon it would encourage people to think about if they can send to *some* countries even if not others and it would also speed up mooching when people say they'll always send to their region (I do know you can ask and then mooch straight away but that seems counter intuitive). Also, it would improve the angel network as if, for example, someone in the US will send to all of North America, a Canadian angel could mooch the book to send to another region.

-j

Yes, that could work

I've got 5 or 6 books on my wishlist available right now that I have not mooched because they're only from other countries, so I've spent the points domestically. I don't just factor in that the person I'm mooching from gets to mooch 3 books from their own country because of my points spent, but hard postage costs.

While I appreciate the sentiment, you have to understand that for some mmoochers from smaller countries the "hard postage costs" are totally worth it. They don't have the opportunity to buy the books elsewhere at a reasonable cost. Bookmooch is their best chance at getting books. They wouldn't post the books in their inventory if they didn't want to send them. If someone really wants to help international mooching, and you have the points and ratio to spare, go take a look at the "members by country" list and pick a small membership country or two. Look through their inventories and see if there is anything you would like to mooch (even as a remooching book). You can always email first if you want to be sure it wouldn't be too much of a hardship to them. And if it is an inactive account, you can put it on vacation if they don't respond. I wish there was a way to vacation inactive accounts with unresponsive "ask first" requests. I have a dozen or so Canadian and international inactive account requests in my pending which I will be canceling and vacationing in a week or so. And *please* mooch from Canadians. We would rather send to you than each other;)

"Do you think you could add a regional tier at 2/2 (for Canada/US, particularly) before you change this? Or at least launch both things simultaneously? I think that 2-point cost for Canadian/US mooching is very important, and it isn't necessary to receive a third point between those countries to offset the cost of sending."

Yes please consider this change at the same time as the 3:3 trial as Canadian/US rates should reflex the lower cost to send if it will be 1:1 ratio make it 2:2 points to Canada/US

"I think this change is a real shame. Understandable reasoning, but a real shame. I understand why you're doing it, and I can't say it seems unfair, but . . . (Sigh.) Just a real shame."

Here again I agree, understand the reasoning and the extra points accruing in the system but a big incentive to mooch internationally will be taken away. Fewer international mooches means fewer international sends. It won't change my decision to send but will change my decision to mooch internationally.

"One more question: Do you think it would be possible to also implement that "multiple mooch discount" idea you mentioned earlier in three months' time, as well? That would still be a bit inflationary, but not nearly as much, as you mentioned, and it *would* help to offset the rising cost (and any disappointment) over this change. If you could implement that, as well as a 2/2 point change for Canadian/American mooches, I think that would work well. Plus then people would have something to look forward to when this change happens -- and it's good to have things people can look forward to, as well as dreading!"

I think this might give an incentive to mooch internationally for me as I try to multi-mooch. Trouble is some countries actually go up in price once a weight is reached. Germany for instance; over 500 gram (to a kilo) cost more than double under 500 grams. So mooching more than 2 books will probably come in separate packages. Rarely 3 books are under 500 grams, rarely.

Thanks again Emily Martha Sorensen

Katharina

PS: however, I would like to add, I like the style of the site, it's uncluttered, user friendly and easy to navigate!!

Not sure how the changes can encourage international mooching, to keep my ratio down I need to send abroad but the cost of an extra point will discourage others abroad from mooching from me. So more books I list in the hope of sending abroad will stay in the UK.

1. Stop sending anything internationally. This will save me money, however, I would feel guilty asking people to send to me when I wouldn't send to them. So either I don't mooch internationally & have less chance of getting a book I want or I have to learn to live with feeling I was being unfair. This would also be against what you are trying to achieve - more books available to more people.

2. Switch to ask me & only agree to send the lighter books. Keeps costs down but will have to reject quite a few people. Also means I could do some international mooching without feeling guilty but again it will be against what you are trying to achieve.

3. Stick to worldwide status but only mooch from UK users (unless it's a hard to get book). I would still be able to get 3 books for sending 1 out at a higher cost & this would keep all my books available to everyone. But again I would be limiting how many books would be available for me to mooch.

4. Stick to worldwide status and mooch both internationally & within UK. This would mean I could be frequently spending more money in order to obtain a 2nd hand book than I would if I bought the same book new on Amazon & I can't afford to waste money.

I feel that the main issue is that the costs of books & postal systems around the world are just too varied. I don't see how you can come up with a system that will do anything but suit some people & penalise others.

With regards to multi-mooching. As the UK postal system is based on weight this means that unlike the US users, I wouldn't save any money doing this. I've never mooched from someone that says they'll only send internationally if you mooch x amount at once as I've never found enough books on their list I would want to read (probably because of how quickly books are mooched) and I'm not prepared to mooch a list of books I don't want just to get 1 I do.

I'm not certain if anyone else has commented on the aspect of international bookmooching that I want to address today. I'll go ahead and make my point, with apologies to anyone who might have mentioned this aspect; I could very well have missed seeing those comments.

I'm perfectly WILLING to send internationally, but not financially able to do so... so my settings of "only to my country" are forced on me because of the monetary aspect.

After a very short while I fell in love with the whole spirit of bookmooch and forgot all about my "only within Europe" and "only light books" rules. It's fun, my books are finding their way to new readers, and I'm discovering new books and authors. The extra money I spend on postage is worth it for the enjoyment I get out of it. BUT I would never have become a member if it weren't for the 3:2 ratio.

At a 3:3 ratio this will become a rather expensive hobby. I'm sure I will continue, because I really do love BM, but as a new member I would have been scared away. I only mooch/send internationally, so the fact that books in my own country would cost fewer points does not help at all.

My question is: wouldn't it be possible to have a small incentive for sending internationally, without it being a whole point? How about a 3:2.5 ratio, or 3:2.75?

Mooching internationally, though, is going to be affected because a lot of international moochers depend on international mooches and people from countries with the bigger book inventories will probably rather mooch 3 books domestically than spend it on one international mooch. Before they could still justify it on the fact it was just an extra point. Not anymore.

I see the issue with point inflation, but could there be alternative ways of encouraging international mooching? In particular, to pull books out of the US and to the rest of the world? (I think some people in the US maybe don't understand how cheap it is to send books overseas for them, and especially to Canada.) The suggestion about regional tiers are an interesting approach which help; maybe US-Canada-Mexico could be one region, and Europe another?

As it stands, after about 18 months of active participation BM has been more expensive than I'd anticipated and kind of frustrating. I guess I'll stick with it for now, but ...

I seldom mooch from my own country. I don't find the books that I'm looking for.

The system is made for the USA and so are the new rules."

Let's us just be taken with the flow!
I agree to you Zjanette...like you I only mooch internationally and this change makes me sad, it will discourage me sending out internationally and since there's scarcely to mooch within, I might stop eventually...

I've got more points than I can ever really use up (a modest 60, but it'll do me right) and so I think this change is fine. It balances better with the ratio and I'm fine with whether it's 1 or 3 or 6 months.

I'm a little confused as to how this affects the Angels negaticely. It doesn't at all. Angels mooch domestically, so pay only one point and send internationally, earning 3 points. They're still 2 points up, aren't they?

Well done John on braving the storm lately, it's been pretty heated on here! Still love Bookmooch and I still recommend it to all my friends. But change is never easy.

I will watch with interest how things go, hopefully either we can adapt once we see the lay of the land, or if it doesn't work out, things will return to normal.

My mooches are 100% from abroad (exc. a few angel mooches). The books mooched from me were also mostly in English.

Indeed this will hurt international mooching. My Indonesian BM friends would certainly refrain from mooching internationally due to lack of points (caused by dismal national mooching/amount of users so we rely heavily on intl mooch).

I wish there is more option for regional mooch (Asia-Australia please) as mentioned repeatedly by other users before me.

Glad that the time is three months from now. Better spend my points asap then.

I live in Italy: since January posting a single paperback abroad costs me 7 euros ( i.e. 11 US dollars ) to European countries and 10 euros ( 1.e. 14 US dollars ) to the US.
Multiple mooches improves the situation only marginally: 9 euros ( i.e. 13 US dollars ) for European countries and 14 euros ( 1.e. 18 US dollars ) to the US for two paperbacks, perhaps three but only if very slim.
Besides this quantity, fees increase exponentially, such as 30 euros, i.e. 45 US dollars for sending out a little package, with no more than 6-7 paperbacks.

Please compare these rates to the cost of 1.28 euros ( that is 1.70 US dollars ) for posting a paperback nationally.

The extra point earned in int'l trades barely compensates me of the additional postage costs whenI send books abroad, and I have been forced anyway starting from January to accept only multiple mooches, since they're the only ones I can afford.

Should it not be any longer the case, that is, shouldn't the extra point being available any longer, I'll be forced to stop sending books abroad: it will be cheaper for me buy brand new books instead, which is just crazy!! So I'll try to spend my points as fast as I can, and then probably I will swith my account to "only domestic shipments", or perhaps close my account and switch to some other swap system, since BM subscribers in our country are too few and English books available in our country are too rare to make it worthwhile. So the objection, "you can anyway take advantage of points earned in int'l mooches for domestic mooches", in little countries such as ours does not apply. Whatever advertising to BM you can do, subscribers will be very few in absolute figures.

Pity, I had lots of fun with BM in the last two years.

you're perfectly right, I was just simplifying. If you have for instance a tradesize paperback, it certanly exceeeds 350 grams so that sending it to the US costs 14 euros, i.e. 18 dollars. I too have some tradesize editions and I don't know what to do with them.

John and others: what would you do if you were in our shoes? To send a book abroad the rates are at least 5 or 6 times higher than sending books domestically. And I cannot use the 3 points from an int'l mooch in Italy, since nearly nobody here has English books.
Want to do an exercise John? I have 900+ books in my wishlist. As of today, NONE of them is available in my country.

So, if you take away the extra point, which was the only advantage left, the only one allowing us to go on mooching internationally, what's the point of mooching for us?

As a Canadian, I just thought I'd explain what I pay to send off a book.

We'll talk about a slim book (which can slip by using lettermail rates), and then we'll talk about a fatter book.

International - earning "3 points"
To the USA, the slim book costs $3.50
To other countries, the slim book costs $7.00

So my point-cost is from $1/point to $2.33/point in *real money* for a slim book when I ship it internationally.

Domestic - earning "1 point"
Within Canada, the slim book costs about $2.75 (if I don't get caught - more on this later).

So my point-cost is $2.75/point in *real money* for a slim book when I ship it domestically.

Now... let's talk about a book that is not slim. And here's the facts - according to Canada Post's regulations, you cannot ship ANY books by lettermail rates. Even if it's slim enough to slip through their slot, it is disqualified from lettermail because it is a "good" or an "article of value". Who cares that it would be hard to get 25 cents at a garage sale for the book - you can NOT ship a book by lettermail rates. My postmaster refuses me service now because he knows I'm shipping books, and I have to travel to the nearby village where I sneak them in.

OK, so how about a fatter book then.

International - earning "3 points"
To the USA, the fat book costs $6.50 (small packet surface)
To other countries, the slim book costs $8.50 (small packet surface)

So my point-cost is from $2.17/point to $2.83/point in *real money* for a fat book when I ship it internationally.

Domestic - earning "1 point"
Within Canada, the fat book costs between $9.50 to $12.00.

So my point-cost is $10/point or more in *real money* for a fat book when I ship it domestically.

So... is BookMooch dead for Canada-Canada swaps? Yes, pretty well. Unless somebody can mooch 3 books (which would ship for about $12-$14), there is NO incentive whatsoever for a Canadian to mooch from another Canadian. If the book's still in print, you can go on Amazon and buy it more cheaply than using Bookmooch.

But... is BookMooch dead for Canada-USA swaps? Maybe... if it costs 3 points to get my books, a typical US user will just wait until he sees the same book listed within the USA. There's a lot more US bookmooch users, so eventually any book that I'd list would also appear on the inventory list of an American user.

So if the US users aren't asking for my books... who is? Not the Canadians. So how do I get points then? I need points so that I can pay for the cost of my own Bookmooch requests.

Sorry John. This change may make sense for most countries, but it kills the site for Canadians. The site was already only half-functional for Canadians (for US-Canada swaps only, or Angel swaps), but now there are two users with little incentive to mooch from me (Canadians and Americans).

I fully agree. I also live in Italy and, having quite small inventory, every point that I can get extra, when giving books and then mooching again internationally, is precious for me. Without that incentive, I see no reason to mooch books from abroad! I'll try to mooch and give away as many books as possible before the trial period begins and then I'll probably just quit mooching books, or wait patiently that some very rare copy in English language pops-up in my country.

In the place I live the postage cost of sending 2 books roughly covers one new inexpensive book in local bookstore. While using Bookmooch I am entitle to receive 2 books internationally with the points, so the new system is still attractive to me.

Thanks,
Helen

I'm looking at it from a "what does it cost me financially to earn a point" angle. It's roughly £1.50 to earn a point, whether domestic or international. So to receive a book domestically makes sense - cheaper than buying it myself. But getting a book from abroad at 2 points (i.e. £3 spent to get those 2 points) is doable, though I'll always pick domestic first (or wait if I think a domestic is likely).

But if it costs me 3 points for an international mooch, then that's £4.50 I've had to spend on postage to earn those points. And 9 times out of 10, I can get the book brand new on Amazon for under £4.

End result - 3 points earnt to send internationally, and 3 points to receive, might even out in a "you send one, you receive one" way. But the points that BM runs on, are created by MONEY. It's not like when you join BM, you are given 5 points and then you have to keep your account in credit by mooching (in which case, you would *have* to mooch 1 in/1 out domestically or internationally, to keep yourself in credit).

Because points are earnt through cash, it means that sometimes I will end up going to Amazon if the only way I can get a book is through an international mooch. I want to receive books from people abroad, I love getting personal parcels rather than Amazon ones. But if it's not economically viable (and if you end up with smokey or damaged books, which is a risk), then the shiny, cheap, new Amazon books become the better option. Second hand only wins when it's cheaper.

I'll still post books out internationally, but my mooching from them will be drastically cut back. It's just not worth it.

I agree. And you're still lucky, since you have the choice to mooch either nationally and internationally.

If you MUST send books abroad ( since in your country there are only few moochers ) in order to get books from abroad ( since in your country they're not available ), and int'l postage is MUCH more expensive than national postage ( as it's more and more the case, in lots of countries ) the new 3:3 option simply kills you. It would be cheaper to buy new books at bookdepository, and dispose of the ones you don't want to keep, instead of mooching them from abroad. Sorry if it may sound harsh but it's true.

Let’s analyze the situation of the 2:3 ratio for international mooching:

Problems:
1. Inflation: there are so many points in the system and not so many books available.
2. Ratio: incorrect because of the 2:3 ratio for international mooching.
3. Additional one point for international mooching is causing inflation.

Possible causes:
• Some members are collecting books and not putting back in the system (well, it’s their rights…they didn’t get the books if they didn’t send any).
• Some members have so many books in a pile waiting to be read. (This case falls on me, I won’t send a book I haven’t read…give me time).
• Some members have so many points and there’s no available book to mooch so they won’t list books to send (depends on person individually).
• Some members have so many books but cannot afford to send.
• There might be more causes I haven’t mentioned but these are the major causes.

Solution: Ratio 3:3 for international mooching
• No business man is going to buy a book and sell with the same price. If you want to promote international mooching, give us incentives and not to take it back what we already have.
• Prices are going up and crisis is going on…and so is the postage. Sending international costs more now than buying a new one (in my country).
• This 3:3 ratio won’t promote international mooching. I’m backing out now.

I’m not analyzing the situation just to back out! But I want to offer an alternative … maybe a compromise?

Alternative: RATIO 3:4 for international mooching

Effects:
• Members who send and mooch only to their country won’t be affected.
• Members who send only to their country and mooch internationally will be very much affected. In what way? They might considered sending internationally now. (positive effect for international mooching and more books available international).
• Members who send internationally and mooch domestically. They might be more willing to do so more than before. This case falls to our angels in which the problem of the ratio comes in. (In every rules there’s an exemption. The 2:1 ratio for books limit is good but if anyone has more than that…there should be a solution. You can’t just throw away points you deservedly earned. Suggestion: members who falls on this case whether an angel or not, should apply for expansion or whatever you will call it…means more work for admin.).
• The additional one point for international mooching has a less value than before. It won’t be eliminated but it will be less and more books available for international moochers.
• This 3:4 ratio support international moochers and promotes international mooching.
• It’s a compromise from the 2:3 and 3:3 ratio for international mooching.

I always figured that the extra point was to make up for the extra mailing costs which have expanded into new horizons Right now we in the US are lucky that we can ship up to 4 books overseas for $13.95 in a flat rate envelope and the Overseas moochers can ship by Sea mail, slow but less expensive so that single book mooches work for them. Killing the extra point makes it even less of an attraction!

If you are looking for more books to mooch this is NOT the way to do it. Point inflation does NOT correspond to books listed. As I have found that the people who have the largest total of points, list the most books and they are the people who actually honor (send) a mooch on a regular basis. It is the accounts that list 1 or no books and don't honor a mooch that are killing this site.

A lot of the New Moochers are Cherrypickers who sit and wait for
the 1 book that they want to come up to mooch. Which is ok. But I like to mooch different books that look interesting. Yes, I have mooched more books then I can read in a year but I am retiring soon and will be able to have the extra time to read more. Then the books will be put up for others.

I guess what I am really stating is use it or lose it! Bookmooch that is. ;)

Why not reward those who regularly send out books internationally?

Like, perhaps some extra points for every 10 (a random number that I just came up with) books sent internationally?

Personally I don't think so. Imho opinion, the main reasons are:

- general slowing down of economy during the last two years forced people to cut all unnecessary, "leisure" expenses such as purchasing books & shipping books. Look at all the stopped book lines ( Dorchester stopped printing pbs ), at the closed bookstores, and at B&N case.

- increase of postage fees in many countries.

- progressive diffusion of ebooks.

I'm afraid that the 3:3 change is just going to furtherly reduce the amount of books int'lly available, since mooching from abroad will be so "expensive" in terms of points that most people will stop doing that (esp. US members: why should they spend now 3 points to get a book now, if it's enough to wait a bit and the same book will pop up soon or later in their own country at a 1 point cost?). In other words, exactly the opposite of what John hopes.

Just my two cents' worth.

The present amount of BM members can be easily checked at the "browse - by location" pages, and you can find November 2010 figures here:

BM Health

To check members by country, use the last link in John's message, then click on "membership statistics":

http://sunrisecodeworks.com/BookMoochStatisticsMembership.html

No idea about overall int'l transaction number, though. By sure mine are under a dry spell since last May.

during the last few months from time to time I had a glance to the # of BM members, and my feeling is that the trend vs. time has been more or less constant everywhere, ie decreasing. You can have a look at the UK figures too, for instance - pretty much the same drop than the US and Canada.

Italy, my country, is an exception: since the link to Amazon database was completed 3 or 4 months ago, there's been a sudden increase in # of members, so that it's now the 3rd most represented country in BM (it used to be Canada, after the US and UK).

I think I might have completed 5-6 mooches in the past few months, whereas before the 3-point int'l mooches I was easily completing more than that per month.

That's just by memory, though, so it'd be interesting to see what trends John's data would show.

We are still waiting John.

I look at the "forums" and find only ancient blog posts. I'm about ready to abandon my 100 points as there seems to be no prospect of being able to mooch anything like that many books.

There are multiple reasons why any particular email doesn't reach you - Email is not, and will probably never be, a completely reliable service. If your Email account has such a facility, I would recommend whitelisting the address that the notification mails come from (bookmooch@r.bookmooch.com, I think) and see if that helps matters.

Edit: Spelling - you vex me.

I subscribe to the RSS feed of books on my wishlist. That doesn't seem to have been working too well recently either. Although that could just be because of the dearth of internationally moochable books.